Episode Six: The Gift of Forgiveness, An Interview with Ocean Beach One's Church Pastor Julian Malotti

Tucked away in the heart of Ocean Beach, San Diego at the corner of Sunset Cliffs Blvd and Santa Monica Ave is a church with a sign that boldly invites the imperfect. It reads “A church or imperfect people.” If you have an opportunity to visit, you will go inside and see surfers with hair still wet, you will see students, you will see elderly, you will see homeless and you will see young couples. It is a beautiful experience. It is a judgement free zone that invites you to experience one thing – the love of Christ. In today’s episode I had the privilege of interviewing one of the co-pastors Julian Malotti. Originally from Brazil, Julian grew up feeling very much alone and isolated, had trust and forgiveness issues, and was asking the question – is this all there is to life? You just pay bills, exist and live in a world without community? God met him in that place and he shares his story with us today and will encourage you to give yourself the gift of forgiveness. 

Transcript

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Tucked away in the heart of Ocean Beach, San Diego, at the corner of Sunset cliffs Boulevard in Santa Monica Avenue is a church with the sign the boldly invites the imperfect that reads a church for imperfect people. If you have an opportunity to visit, you will go inside and see surfers with hair still wet, you'll see students, you'll see elderly you'll see homeless, and you'll see young couples. It's a beautiful experience. It's a judgment free zone that invites you to experience one thing, the love of Christ. And today's episode, I have the privilege of interviewing one of the CO pastors Julian melotti. Originally from Brazil, Julian grew up feeling very much alone and isolated, had trust issues and forgiveness issues and found himself asking the question Is this all there is to life, you just pay bills, you just exist and you live in a world without community or trust. God met him in that place. And today, he shares his story with us, and will encourage you to give yourself the gift of forgiveness. Start off at the beginning. And really go back to you know, just kind of tell us about your life before and what life was like for you growing up in Brazil. So middle class, I was raised in a middle class family. Mom and dad were married until we kids move out of the house. So I would say an okay marriage, not a bad marriage. But they had an okay marriage sometimes I still remember when I was about seven or eight, they had some talks of divorce. And I remember us crying in the living room and they kind of like postponed it because of the situation, you know, seeing the kids crying and things like that. So it wasn't a bad marriage. And they weren't like there were good people with an okay marriage. And so middle class in Brazil, it's you have to go to a private school public schools are, you know, not good down there. And so it's a it's it's a daily hustle financially. And but yeah, that was that was pretty much my family going. No, my parents again, middle class, I'll say middle upper class. So they had a a beach home, that was like two hours away. And so it was like living in a big city. It's bigger than LA. And bigger than New York, I believe. Yeah. So it's 22 million people in my city. So it's like traffic. And I never liked it there being in a city. And so like starting at age bow 15 or getting a Greyhound bus, it's not really Greyhound down there. But uh, and I would just go to the beach and just stay there by myself. And that's where I wanted to be. And, and why I'm saying this because it's connected to San Diego. That's how I ended up in San Diego, because at one point, I wanted to move by the beach, because that's where I feel like it's where I belong, you know, by the ocean. And so yeah, again, parents were kind of absent, because you have to work so much in a poor country, that like 12 hour shifts is the norm. And so I would really not see my parents I'll which is we all leave the house together. And I'll come back at about 1230 Because school there ends at noon, and I'll be back home by 1230 parents weren't at the house. So pretty much raised on the streets in the 80s it was safer, but not too much. Like, you know, learning from the parents what to do what not to do what's right and wrong. It was just like you raise yourself on the streets. And so yeah, that's that's that so they didn't overwork because they were bad people. You just have to work damn much. And so yeah, so absent, absent parents, not because they're bad again. So anyways, when I was 1516, I'll get in the bus. You can only drive when you're 18 in Brazil. And so I didn't have my license. So getting the bus to our ride, and I'll be there in the beach house by myself and I loved it. So that was again, going back to my who I I've been for a long time very independent, and I needed to be somewhere else, not the city. And I needed more nature in my life. So yeah, that's what my weekends look like. Sounds pretty awesome. Yeah, not bad at all. Then for most people, we fuse lonely specially like, Latin culture. That is like very connected people are very connected, but I love being by myself. And I love doing things that I loved. So, which is pretty connected to moving to San Diego, okay, because it's one of the things when people move, or they change countries and they move to a different country. They feel lonely a lot. But being lonely doesn't bother me. So you grew up in Brazil, and at what point did you decide that it was that wasn't going to be your forever home? So when I was 15, my parents took us to a cruise ship in Florida. And I fell in love with America, America, so beautiful and organized. And so that was when I was 15. When I was 16, my best friend, his dad moved to Atlanta, Georgia, he was transferred from Brazil to Georgia. And so when I was 16, I spent a month there and I loved America even more. Like oh, this place is amazing. And but they don't have the beach there. They do but not in Atlanta. And so I went back, I went back to Brazil when I was 17. Now I became a foreign exchange student by ended up in Texas, had a bunch of cowboys and call girls and little Waxahachie, Texas. Yeah. And so I stayed there for six months, even though I didn't love the country vibes. I love America even more. So going back to Brazil, started college, year and a half later, I was like, I'm ready to move to the beach. I had a friend. I remember we were working out at the gym. And he's he said, A I'm going to San Diego. We're going to spend six months there just to study English. And I was like, Can I go with you? Because growing up as a surfer to you always you open up surfing magazines. You see California all over the place. You see Malibu UC Santa Cruz, you see Black's Beach, which is right here in San Diego. And so I was like, Yeah, California. Can I go with you is like, Yeah, I'm looking for people to go. And so I came thinking it was only going to be a three month vacation and became the rest of my life kind of thing. So yeah, one thing led to another, I went to Mesa College, which is the community college here. And I asked him a simple question. What do I have to do to sign up and stay here? They're like, yeah, just gotta pass the English test. And that was easy for me because I was a foreign exchange student. So it was a basic test. You may be listening to me now on the podcast, and you know, his struggles with English still, to this day, like how did he pass the test? But it was it was an easy one. And then I stayed. Yeah. That was 1995. So when that happened, so I kind of knew again that I loved America. And I love the beach, and San Diego hat both, if that makes make sense. But I didn't think I was going to spend the rest of my life year don't know what retirements gonna look like. So I don't know the future. But my wife and I were very, very happy here. Yeah. And you found yourself and ocean beach particularly right? The beach, right? I didn't know it was going to be Ocean Beach. You was the beach. I will be around. Like I said Black's Beach, Pacific Beach, Ocean Beach surfers were looking for good waves. And but it just happened that really, God had a plan for me here in Ocean Beach. Something I didn't think nobody can plan this kind of stuff. Right. But that's that's what happened in my life. So yeah, and I know, from previous conversations that I've heard you talk about when you in this time, it sounded like you were enjoying life and having a lot of fun. But there was also a very empty side to it as well. Yeah, the empty side came with. I call like adulting I think when we're young, we're pretty naive how, how bad the world is. We think the world is beautiful. Everyone's nice and everyone's kind. And I was again, I was never perfect. I'm still not perfect, but I was. I was a good kid. And I trusted people and so that's when it started to happen. Like being backstabbed by my best friends. That was very hurtful, like people that you know, for a long time and you know, their moms and dads, they know your mom and dad and they backstab you like bad not backstab you little backstab you bad and you Like, if I can trust my best friends Who can I trust. And then when in when I was 21, I started my first long term relationship here in San Diego, we ended up moving together and living together. And that didn't work out well, at the end, she also backstabbed me because, anyways, that deposit the computer, I had a lot of stuff in the place. And when I moved out, she kinda like took all my stuff and left. And so I felt like again, backstabbed by someone that I shared life with for almost two years. And then worse, on top of that was then when I broke up with her because she was a good looking girl, all my quote unquote, friends at that time, kind of like forgot about me. And they all went after her, because now she's available. And I'm like, here we go again. You really can trust people. So I felt like at that point, I'm like, 23, and I can't trust anyone. And on top of that, my my parents got divorced when I was 22. So I was I was here in San Diego. So it didn't affect me, as far as watching them getting divorced, or anything like that, but my dad never pay my mom, alimony, which he, he had to and he never did. And financially, that was a burden on us, the kids, the three siblings, because now we have to financially support mom, because dad is being a jerk to mom. And he's thinking that he's only like winning the battle against her. But I don't think he ever stopped to think or if it did, he never changed to realize that no, I'm cheating my kids. And by cheating my kids financially, I'm cheating my grandkids as well. Because every time we send money, we send money to my mom. I'm actually having to say sometimes no to my own kids about and so that was again another big disappointment, seeing my dad putting this financial burden on so yeah, by age 25 about feeling lonely in the world. had broken up with a girlfriend so very disappointed with love, even human love and relationships and friends and dad. So it was pretty low disappointment is 20 to 23. Yeah, lightens up, which is maybe part of adulting maybe everyone goes through it. I think what the big difference is what we're gonna do, is that right? We're gonna I put myself in a lonely dark place like I'm like, okay, so if I can't trust any of you better be lonely then, you know, with bad company kind of thing. And so I just became like a lonely not because I wasn't dependent lonely. Now this is because I'm hurt lonely. And I thought the rest of my life was going to be there. It's going to be lonely and you can't trust people. And that's what my future is going to look like. I was trying to figure exciting. No, no vise 25 You're too young. Right? But yeah. Wow. So you're kind of living this very inward life, I guess really putting up a lot of walls around you absolutely. Having relationship and I mean, what did life look like for you? I mean, during that time, at that time, yeah, like I said, it's lonely. It was weird because I've always had conversations with God, you know, and I, I see beauty nature and I see so much like, beauty in the world. And I'm like, I would talk to God, lonely by myself. Like, I see so much beauty in the world, like sunsets and fruits that I like in trees and flowers and so much beauty and I would I would just ask him like, why aren't I like experiencing a little bit of that? It felt like a contradiction. It's a beautiful world. And I didn't do anything bad to those people that backstab me anyways. I'm not perfect, but I didn't do anything. And why? Why aren't I like experiencing a little bit of that beauty? Why is it so lonely here? Am I here just to really pay bills and and be hurt and lonely that was going through my mind? Yeah, it was. Yeah. So what happened next, that kind of changed everything. What happens next is really it's I think it's because my conversations with God I was talking to him at the beach one day, lonely trying to figure out like, okay, life is going to be lonely for the rest of my life. At one point I was trying to adjust to like, that's going to be my normal life now lonely and you can trust people. And I remember this group of people, they were right there I was at the beach talking to God. And this group of people, they showed up, it was about 12 people, male and female, they're about my age again. 25. And they were happy. And they were friends. And they were united and, and I'm like, that's exactly what I'm looking for, like, this is exactly what I'm looking for. I'm like, they're not really like flirting each other, but male and female hanging out his friends. And I saw like, anyways, he was light, it was friendship. It was, it was exactly what I was looking for. And that's the part that I feel God comes into picture because I wasn't going to approach like strangers and ask, hey, where do you find real friends? Or I wasn't gonna do that. Right. So awkward. So I just remember watching them, you know, for a couple of minutes. And I'm thinking, I want that. And they came to me. And they came to me. And they asked me to set up a new umbrella because they didn't know how to set up an umbrella at the beach. And I'm like, Who doesn't know how to set up an umbrella? It's like, but that was the way God found to invite me into that conversation. And when I'm setting up the umbrella, it takes a few minutes. And then I'm then I'm asking questions. I'm like, Well, I can tell you guys are really friends. How do you guys know each other? And they're like, I, they felt a little embarrassed, embarrassed and awkward a little bit, but they were like, from the church. Because, you know, like, people usually don't like to have like church conversations. And I remember like listening to that, and I sat down and I asked, Do you mind if I hang out with you guys? I just have a few questions. And they're like, Yeah, awesome. Join us. And I'm like, Cool. This is what I'm looking for. And I'm like, Okay, tell me everything about church. Now I want to know, like, like, can you date if you're a church person? Like, because I'm 25? Right? That's what's going through my mind. Like, how do you date? Well, what is what is it like going to church because I was born and raised Catholic. But in Brazil, being a Catholic doesn't mean anything. For most Catholics. I went to Catholic school for 13 years of my life. But I didn't know anything about God. And so I took religious studies for 13 years, didn't know anything, but all I had was like Conversations with God. And so born and raised Catholic didn't mean anything to me. That's why I had questions about the church. And I was like, Okay, tell me, tell me everything. Can you date can you not date, like, and they started explaining to me, and that's how everything changed. I tell people I ended up in the last day in the last place. I thought one day I would be in that's the church, because I was too cool for the church. Like I'm a surfer. I was a semi professional soccer player. I did well, in sports, I was part of the coup club everywhere, like in I play soccer for the university. So you just hang out with the jocks and, and the good looking people. And I thought church was like, corny, and that's for not for me. I'm too cool. I'm too cool for church. And. But that's what, that's what happened. And I ended up in church, like being friends with people in the church. And that's the beginning of the best chapter of my life. That's a beautiful story. It really is. So you met this group of friends, they had this authentic relationship they had, you know, it sounds like a lot of hope and joy kind of exuding from them. So what was the next step from their next step? They were, again, here I am in Brazil, because I broke up the relationship here in San Diego, and I needed to take a break. So I'm in Brazil for three months having these conversations with God at the beach. This group shows up and they were like, Hey, there's going to be a conference in our church next week. Would you like to join us? It's a different state that I had never been before. But I was like, Sure, you know, like, I'm going to be here in Brazil for three months. Yeah, going to this different place and meeting new people. And so that was my first experience going, going to church, not again, not as a Catholic, but somebody who was not being forced to go to church with somebody, right? Somebody that's choosing to go and I went and I stay there with them for 10 Days and went to this conference. And that I think that was, that was the beginning of like, I'm loving it. I'm loving this, this new thing that's happening in me. It's a strange thing. But at one point I gave my life to God. And it's even hard to explain. You hear that in church, and I did. And when I did that, I said, God, okay, I love this thing. I love this new friends. This is what I've been looking for. And I hear some of them saying, Would you like to give your life to God and follow him? I'm like, exactly. That's what I want. I think I was the easiest catch in the whole world, because I was so ready, you know. And anyways, and with that, it was weird. Because with that I, the Bible calls it being born again. And I felt it. It was like, A New Hope, a new heart, a new beginning. It's hard to explain, but it's real. And with that, for me, it came to calling to be a pastor, which I had no idea what being a pastor is like. And I didn't even like pastors to be honest. Because the ones I knew were on TV, just asking for money. And so I'm like, Okay, God, I'll follow you, because it's been so good. But I have no idea what it means. I remember in that conference, going to the bookstore, the church bookstore and buying a couple of books about church leadership, because I just felt that God had that for me. But that's all I had a couple of books. And that's it. Yeah. So then how did you find your way back to San Diego? Again, it was just three months. It was just a vacation. I was doing college here. Then I came back and finished school. I graduated as a computer engineer. But knowing that right after that I was going to seminary, and that's what I did. I graduated and went to seminary. And right after seminary, I became an ordained pastor. That's when you're officially, you know, recognized password that was between 2005. So I, I graduated college in 2002. As a computer engineer, I worked as a computer engineer for 12 years, and I was 100%. Volunteer at church for 12 years, until, you know, it became a vocation where were my calling, became my vocation. I was I was going to be a pastor no matter what, because that was my heart. I was going to be volunteer for the rest of my life. I didn't know that, you know, really getting paid to do what I love. It was something that was going to happen to me. But it was God's timing and in 2012, that's when that happened. So you started here, it'll be one. It's it's, yeah, I started here at Obi Wan. But the funny part of the story was that I was living in San Diego for five years. There were no Brazilian churches in San Diego. There's none. I go to Brazil for three months. I have my life change experience with God. And when I come back, there is a Brazilian church in San Diego that just started. And it was right here inside Obi Wan. Wow. And it was at night. My pastor pastor Daniel started that church, he moved from LA, here to San Diego to start working with people that were looking for God and our relationship with God here in San Diego. So that's how I started I started going to this building. I've been in this building now for 22 years. But I would come at night. Because that's when the church services in Portuguese were held. But yeah, right here, it will be one. Wow. Yeah, that was not by accident. No, because it's so like, looking back. It's so crazy. Like my kids. They were born in this church. Like my kids. This was kids ministries back then. So they used to, like, really, they were raised right here in this room. And I got married in this church, and my kids were born in this church, and then I became the pastor of this church. So it's, yeah, it's Yeah, God is filled with surprises. And is absolutely one of them. I thought like, I'm a mover, I like moving places every five years. i That's That's who I am. And now I have roots here in this church building for 22 years. And it's like, okay, you make plans, but how about I have different purposes for you, Julian and so yeah, been an OB now for this for 22 years. That's amazing, right? And since that transformation, really, like you went from this person who was in this really dark place didn't trust any bit Buddy was very lonely to serving people is your vocation and loving people. You know, how, what did it feel like as you may that transition, how did you change inside? It's almost like, you don't have to do much. It's like, God does all the work. You know, God teaches you like, a forgive people, because now you have all these walls, Julian that you're blocking people from coming into your life. And there's so many good people like, and I'm like, Yes. And so I, he taught me to forgive. And when I forgave, I allowed people to come into my heart again. And that's when new friendships start with church people again, which again, I was used to, like call, like, the cool people, only the good looking cool people. And in church, that's, it's one of the beauties of the church, you know, like, what unites us is not looks or cool or not cool, or financial status, or how many diplomas you have or don't have, what unites us is really like love for God, and love for people. And so then I started hanging out with people of different backgrounds and different everything. And I loved it, I was missing out so much by by putting myself into this clubs, if you will. And so it's it's just allowing God to break a lot of the, the, again, walls and unforgiveness and preconceived ideas that you have, like, God, just change all of that. And it's a process. It's so it's not like it's something I had to do. You just let God do of course, you have to follow right? When you learn about forgiveness, then you have to practice doesn't happen. God doesn't do it for you. He he leads you. And then you have to do it. But yeah, it was. It was natural. It wasn't forced. It was just natural. And sure there's some people right now who have trust issues and who have forgiveness issues, and they're hearing that and they're probably like, there's no way I just, it was too big of a hurt. i There's no way I can forgive or I can trust again. You know, what would you say to that person? Yeah, it's, it's hard. It's not easy, like forgiveness. Sometimes you have to forgive people like 1000 times, like I had to forgive my dad for not giving money to my mom until this day, he doesn't give my mom a penny, and his his well off. And here we are three siblings still struggling to raise kids and, and help mom all of that. And if forgiveness is something you have to do a lot, it's not like one and done like I did it. And you have to forgive and forgiveness is not a gift that you're giving the person like I'm not giving forgiveness to my dad, I'm giving forgiveness to myself. Because I deserve and everybody deserves to have a heart. That is not an angry heart. That is not a heart with walls and protections. I call it I call them like love blocks. We put so many walls sometimes in our hearts that it's hard to receive and give love. Because in So forgiveness is something you give, because you want to release yourself from that pain. And that grudge and that anger and that hurt. So it's no in again, faith is a has a big part in this because Bible says forgive as the Lord forgave you. And when we look at the cross, many of you listening you may have like a cross that you like, maybe it's an earring or a necklace, necklace, or the cross represents that. It's like how much God loves us, and how much he forgave us. And so it's a gift that I'm giving the people that hurt me when I do that. It doesn't mean that I have to go back to being best friends, it doesn't mean that I have to put myself in that place that people can hurt me again. But releasing that forgiveness will release my heart and move release your heart from a place of hurt and pain to a place at least there's peace and joy. It's not perfect. And then every time every time I remember that my dad is you know, wronging my mom to this day. I have to forgive him again. So it's forgive and keep forgiving kind of thing. It's the best thing that we can do for our own hearts. And I believe I believe from the bottom of my heart that a lot of healing. A lot of healing from people like from even like addictions and things that we don't think it's connected It may come when we forgive the people that hurt us, it doesn't mean like, by forgiving that it diminishes the pain. It doesn't diminish how wrong they were. It doesn't make it right. But you're doing that for your own heart. And so I believe again, because I was there, I was smoking pot, every day, every day, three, four or five times a day. Accidentally, we start medicating ourselves and we start maybe overusing drugs and overdrying you know overusing alcohol. And I believe forgiveness has the power to release and break a lot of stuff, a lot of bad and negative stuff that we don't think it's connected. But he may be connected. And so I highly recommend to anyone, forgive and keep forgiving. Some people say forgive and forget, I now I can't forget, it's not like free forgiving is gives me amnesia. But it's forgiving, and letting go forgiving and letting go that we need to practice and keep practicing for the rest of our lives. And that's really intentional. And you have to choose that. Sometimes I guessing minute by minute to stay in that place. Because it's very easy to go off course and to get angry again and feel that resentment or bitterness Absolutely. is what helps me is also to remember that I'm not perfect also. And so when I forgive now, my wife when she when I feel like she did something that it's upsetting or annoying or whatever. What helps me forgive is that I remember that I'm not perfect as well. And I'm going to need her forgiveness also, and others who need my forgiveness, people driving on the freeway, I try not to cut anybody off on purpose. But sometimes I do it. I go like, Oh, I'm sorry, I just did that. So people in a freeway, we need to forgive me coworkers, we need to forgive me family members, we need to forgive me. So who am I to withhold forgiveness, if I'm going to need it to receive so much for the rest of my life. So that helps me and yeah, it helps me absolutely to be intentional, like you like you said to forgive and keep forgiving. That people especially I think it's my dad now. Because my my friends my best friends that backstab me they they're not a part of my daily life. But every time like my mom has a need has a financial need. And that reminds me that my dad could have helped her in his choosing not so my dad situation is the one that I gotta keep doing it being intentional not allowing anger and bitterness to take my mind and my heart hostage. I don't want to be there. I've been there. And it sucks. And so yeah. And you have been here I know. 22 years you said and tell us about what life looks like for you now. A life now I have been married now for 21 years a if you're listening, being part of the church has so many byproducts. That is I don't have enough time to count all the byproducts like friends that we make and, and people that that helps us and bless us so much. And so we got married to my wife a year after I got saved. And so I was 26 when we got married, we've been married for 21 years now. You have two daughters, Gio, she's 18 driving and college going to the same college I went, which is kind of cool. Marina is turning 16 In a couple of months learning how to drive. She has a Baseball, baseball volleyball game today. So that's life, you know, like being married and working here at Obi Wan being a dad and and juggling all the responsibilities of adult life and and in the same token trying to rest and not burn myself out. Be present as a dad because remember, my parents were not present. So that's a lesson I learned not to repeat. And it's possible it's possible to be to have a busy, balanced, balanced life. So that's what life looks like. Yeah, and one thing that I so appreciate about Obi Wan, is that you know, outside of the door Where it says this is, you know, a church for imperfect people. And I love that because I think so many times people feel like, maybe I have to get my life in order or I have to do something or I have to fix myself before I can come in the door. And when we come in the doors here, it really, it's the most beautiful picture of diversity and socio economic groups. And it's just a beautiful picture of people just supporting one another. If Can you just tell us a little bit about for those people who might be like, I need to fix myself first, before I go, what would you say to them? You know, the banner says church for imperfect people, but church is for the imperfect people. That's, that's all of us. And so don't We don't have to fix anything. When I came to church again, I was smoking pot. I was too angry. I was still bitter. I had left blocks and walls in my heart. It it can't. It can't fix. We can't fix ourselves. It's almost like, come to God, and let him do what he knows how to do it and when to do it. And each one's different. And so know the a lot of people make that confusion. I have to stop this or start that before it comes to church. No, just come. Jesus never said to Peter and Matthew or Mary Magdalene, you have to stop this and you have to stop that then you follow me. You see, he just goes like, follow me. Follow me, follow me and follow me. And so don't let that stop you. I promise the church building will not collapse on you. That's what I thought it was going to happen to me. Church building would not collapse. Nobody's perfect in the church. So you're going to meet a lot of imperfect people, you're not going to be the only one. And I think you're going to fit right in. And if you don't, finding a church is churches like music, you know, some people like country and some people like rock, visit different ones. Once you find the one you're like, that's this is my style of church, stay there. Make friends, be a part of the community just don't go beyond attending and make it part of your life. You know, my kids, you know, like when they became teenagers, they, they're like, I don't want to go to church, I don't want to go to church, I would tell him, I'll tell him. I'll give you a break. Once a month, I'll give you a break. You don't have to come but let me tell you a lot of the good stuff that we have in our lives, is because we are a part of the church. And so a lot of the marriage you see that I have with your mom. Part of it is because we belong to a church. There's I'm learning from the older people there. And there's friendship and accountability and support and, and encouragement. And so there's a lot of goodness of going and belonging to the church. So yeah, don't wait to be perfect. Because if you know don't hold your breath, breath right and and none of us will ever be perfect. Just come with all your imperfections. Put it in God's hands, and he's gonna tell you what to do. is beautiful. I hope you enjoyed the interview with Julian. And if you're ever in San Diego, I encourage you to walk through those doors. Come as you are shorts, joggers, it doesn't matter. Remember, it's a place for imperfect people. I hope you enjoy today's podcast, please like and follow and subscribe. And if you can, I'd really appreciate it if you could leave a review. We'll see you next time.